Comments on: What You Don’t Know About Expansion Joints Can Cost You Later http://poolnerd.com/2007/02/07/expansion-joints/ free swimming pool design and construction information Thu, 17 May 2007 00:51:11 -0400 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Jeff http://poolnerd.com/2007/02/07/expansion-joints/#comment-641 Jeff Thu, 17 May 2007 00:51:11 +0000 http://poolnerd.com/2007/02/07/expansion-joints/#comment-641 Pool Nerd (Tom), Good Stuff! Thanks for the info. I have probably read just about every article you posted and have learned quite a bit. I am a DIY Homeowner/Builder and I have been surfing the web for several weeks now trying to prepare myself for a major pool renovation of a 50 year old 14'x30' pool that has major pool damage (cracks) all along the bond beam and has cracked clear through the waterline tiles. I'm sure it something to do with our expansive soil. My plan is to add a spa to the existing pool along with new decks, plaster, coping etc. Here are some immediate questions that I am trying to find answers to. Any help would be appreciated. 1) How would you go about repairing the bond beam? One contractor said they would just hand pack the cracks and tile over it before replacing the coping. I'm thinking that it should be pulled up and repoured, but I'm concerned that it will be difficult to remove the old concrete as it might be joined to the existing rebar. 2) I noticed you are located in LA county. I'm located in Torrance. Can you reccommend any architects that can help me with the spa addition? My plan is to add the spa at the deep end of the pool by breaking into the existing pool shell. Pool Nerd (Tom),

Good Stuff! Thanks for the info. I have probably read just about every article you posted and have learned quite a bit.

I am a DIY Homeowner/Builder and I have been surfing the web for several weeks now trying to prepare myself for a major pool renovation of a 50 year old 14′x30′ pool that has major pool damage (cracks) all along the bond beam and has cracked clear through the waterline tiles. I’m sure it something to do with our expansive soil. My plan is to add a spa to the existing pool along with new decks, plaster, coping etc. Here are some immediate questions that I am trying to find answers to. Any help would be appreciated.

1) How would you go about repairing the bond beam? One contractor said they would just hand pack the cracks and tile over it before replacing the coping. I’m thinking that it should be pulled up and repoured, but I’m concerned that it will be difficult to remove the old concrete as it might be joined to the existing rebar.

2) I noticed you are located in LA county. I’m located in Torrance. Can you reccommend any architects that can help me with the spa addition? My plan is to add the spa at the deep end of the pool by breaking into the existing pool shell.

]]> By: nerd http://poolnerd.com/2007/02/07/expansion-joints/#comment-196 nerd Thu, 26 Apr 2007 04:27:21 +0000 http://poolnerd.com/2007/02/07/expansion-joints/#comment-196 What a small world! I was born in Hanford. My mom's family there goes back another three or four generations. Anyway, back to your question. What you are describing is called a poured in place, cantilever concrete deck. They were real common around here about 25- 30 years ago. And many, if not all, of them are having problems with tile coming off. I've remodeled quite a few of them. If done properly, though, you should have no long term problems. However, the key is leveling the bond beam after gunite is applied, before the forms for the deck are placed. Gunite, you see, is structural. It isn't meant to be a finished, perfect type of surface. Often, it isn't quite level. I've seen it vary by an inch, even up to two inches, from one part of a pool to another. Leveling it after gunite is complete can be quite labor intensive, which means $$$. This would be much easier to explain with a drawing, but I don't think I can do that in the comments section. Anyway, I'll try to describe what's going on, and hopefully you can follow along. Most cantilever forms these days are made of styrofoam with an adhesive strip along the bottom edge, which is meant to adhere to the tile. So, the tile guy comes in, figures out the highest point on the bond beam, then starts setting his tile there. As he works around the pool, part of the tile will be sticking above the bond beam. Nothing but air behind it. Then the deck guy comes in and sticks his styrofoam form along the top of the tile. When the concrete is poured, that little lip of tile, which used to have only air behind it, now has concrete decking behind it. Then, as seasons come and go, the concrete expands and contracts due to hot/cold. As it expands, it pushes out over the pool, shearing off any tile in front of it. This probably won't happen around the whole perimeter of the pool, but, eventually, it will happen in at least a few spots. I can practically guarantee it. But if you level the bond beam -- both along the perimeter, and front to back on the beam -- before sticking on tile and forms, there will be no concrete-backed lip of tile to shear off. The top of the tile will be just below the bottom of the deck. Apply a bond-breaker (like tar paper) to the top of the beam prior to pouring the deck, then the deck is allowed to expand and contract, riding across the top of the beam without touching the tile. Anyway, if done properly, you shouldn't have problems. Be aware, though, that doing it properly can cost more. Sometimes a significant amount. What a small world! I was born in Hanford. My mom’s family there goes back another three or four generations.

Anyway, back to your question.

What you are describing is called a poured in place, cantilever concrete deck. They were real common around here about 25- 30 years ago. And many, if not all, of them are having problems with tile coming off. I’ve remodeled quite a few of them.

If done properly, though, you should have no long term problems. However, the key is leveling the bond beam after gunite is applied, before the forms for the deck are placed. Gunite, you see, is structural. It isn’t meant to be a finished, perfect type of surface. Often, it isn’t quite level. I’ve seen it vary by an inch, even up to two inches, from one part of a pool to another. Leveling it after gunite is complete can be quite labor intensive, which means $$$.

This would be much easier to explain with a drawing, but I don’t think I can do that in the comments section. Anyway, I’ll try to describe what’s going on, and hopefully you can follow along.

Most cantilever forms these days are made of styrofoam with an adhesive strip along the bottom edge, which is meant to adhere to the tile. So, the tile guy comes in, figures out the highest point on the bond beam, then starts setting his tile there. As he works around the pool, part of the tile will be sticking above the bond beam. Nothing but air behind it. Then the deck guy comes in and sticks his styrofoam form along the top of the tile. When the concrete is poured, that little lip of tile, which used to have only air behind it, now has concrete decking behind it.

Then, as seasons come and go, the concrete expands and contracts due to hot/cold. As it expands, it pushes out over the pool, shearing off any tile in front of it. This probably won’t happen around the whole perimeter of the pool, but, eventually, it will happen in at least a few spots. I can practically guarantee it.

But if you level the bond beam — both along the perimeter, and front to back on the beam — before sticking on tile and forms, there will be no concrete-backed lip of tile to shear off. The top of the tile will be just below the bottom of the deck. Apply a bond-breaker (like tar paper) to the top of the beam prior to pouring the deck, then the deck is allowed to expand and contract, riding across the top of the beam without touching the tile.

Anyway, if done properly, you shouldn’t have problems. Be aware, though, that doing it properly can cost more. Sometimes a significant amount.

]]> By: Brendan http://poolnerd.com/2007/02/07/expansion-joints/#comment-191 Brendan Thu, 26 Apr 2007 02:27:05 +0000 http://poolnerd.com/2007/02/07/expansion-joints/#comment-191 I have just signed a contract with a licensed pool contractor in the town I live in, Hanford, CA. I expect the excavation to start next week. In looking at some of the pools the contractor has built and in many of the gallery photos the stamped concrete pool deck runs to the edge of the pool. There is no coping stone surrounding the pool. In reading your post about falling pool tile due to pool deck contacting the pool, is there any questions I should ask or concerns I should express to the builder regarding the problem you have dicussed in this post. I did not plan on having a coping stone or brick coping around the perimeter of the pool, because I like the way the stamped concrete to the edge looks. I not at all familiar with how pools are constructed and after reading this post, I am not sure if this is the best choice. Thank you for sharing your knowlege and experience. I have just signed a contract with a licensed pool contractor in the town I live in, Hanford, CA. I expect the excavation to start next week. In looking at some of the pools the contractor has built and in many of the gallery photos the stamped concrete pool deck runs to the edge of the pool. There is no coping stone surrounding the pool. In reading your post about falling pool tile due to pool deck contacting the pool, is there any questions I should ask or concerns I should express to the builder regarding the problem you have dicussed in this post. I did not plan on having a coping stone or brick coping around the perimeter of the pool, because I like the way the stamped concrete to the edge looks. I not at all familiar with how pools are constructed and after reading this post, I am not sure if this is the best choice. Thank you for sharing your knowlege and experience.

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